Warren Buffett’s Pampered Chef and MonaVie

so lets recap here:

what health product today in any market can prove their benefit? is this not one of the reasons why no vitamins or any herbals or FDA approved? So MLM has nothing to do with it health based claims. Just here you have the opportunity to eanr income outside of lets say a GNC.

There is a new start up company selling “locally organic milk” to customers for a cost of approx $18 a gallon. Customers are choosing to purchase the milk, is their any health benefit to drinking organic milk that we can see?

A real scam is when people choose to click on that spam e-mail they get stating there is large sums of money waiting to be delivered to them if they would just send a few thoasand to an unknown person outside of the country they will recieve the monies. Now thats a SCAM!

MonaVie distibuites a product that is heeealthy for us to drink, its fruit. No one claims to walk on water after comnsuming the product, its just plain good! that simple. 19 fruits in a bottle, nothing more, nothing less. The world takes vitamins and drink health products every day, do they see benefits? each and every person feels in their own way a benefit and thats theirs to claim. With MonaVie, they have an opportunity to not only benefit from a nutrional product health wise, but also a chance to benefit financially.

You are laughably hollow with the stupidity that you type here. Are you reading what you write? Obviously not, “distributors are claiming” The fact are that its just palin good, do some research idiot it might behoove you. You see you says stupid things like “sodium benzate”. Do you even know what that is? Or are you just repeating what you hear? its nothing more than a preservative approved by the FDA, remember its fruit! The product would be spoiled before it reached your door without it. Sorry to hear you’re broke and wishing you were a MonaVie distributor, but we probably wouldnt want you anyway.

sorry you dont approve of my grammar. I dont usually check my spelling for imnportant topics such as this. In any case its a shame that you would rather write on blogs such as this one, if you really want to do something useful, blog on something that matters in life. Because you don’t have what it takes to be successful in the MoanVie business doesn’t mean you have to write about something you clearly know nothing about.

What rubbish, sodium benzoate is used and present in lots of beverages, fruitconserves and other food in Europe. I myself always keep a package for use when I make jam or fuitjuices with fresh berries or fruits. As did my mother and her mother. It is here called natriumbensoat. Is naturally present in tyttebär/lingon ( wild red berries of great popularity in Scandinavien) and cloudberries, which make them possible to keep for years without any preservation but stored in bottles with clean water.

I don’t think anyone is saying that consuming MonaVie is going to give you cancer.

The point is that MonaVie contains sodium benzoate, which in the presence of ascorbic acid (vitamin C), can form small amounts of a aromatic hydrocarbon called benzene.

Benzene is fat soluble, therefore being exposed to “small amounts” from various sources (gasoline, solvents, glues, benzoic acid preservatives), can produce a cumulative effect.

We treat our bodies to a constant exposure to chemicals, such as benzene, and in the end a rise in cases of cancer will be expected. We have already seen this.

Anything to remove the potential for benzene exposure should be a moral obligation to any company that produces a food product for mass consumption.

The technology to produce a preservative-free juice has been available for quite some time. We used a production method back in the early 1980s called tetra-pak. Today, it’s simply called aseptic packaging.

For a juice company to use artificial preservatives instead of clean room techniques, is shameful. It’s on par with the smaller mom and pop operations, that can’t afford to switch.

Lazyman – I agree with you that MLM based health products should always be a red flag to consumers.

I’ve been observing my friend who’s a Monavie distributor purchase training tools from various sources including Tim Sales.

Can you believe that Tim Sales (who promotes the MLM industry in general) actually provides pamphlets on the benefits of vitamins and minerals??!!!

The winning formula for MLMs is to promote the latest and greatest in magic potions (and opportunities) and what better way to peddle the rubbish than by using greedy, misinformed (and even uneducated) distributors who in turn continue to spread such misinformation to other like minded individuals.

Are you suggesting that I should set up a blog about how Crystal Meth is bad for you so you can send them to try that too?

(BTW, considering you haven’t been alive for a dozen years (tupac shakur), I’m not that concerned about the people you send to this blog.)

So monavie scam just for clarification.. have you tried Monavie or the business??

No but when I send people to your site they think you are on crystal meth.

Im still waiting for you scam bloggers to explain why a job is not a pyramid???

“tupac shakur” states “The problem with mlm is any jackass can join and then when they fail come running to juice scam.bam and cry and whine.”

“tupac shakur” further points out “…and the company is still making money.”

Agreed. It’s unfortunate that distributors such as yourself are too STUPID see that with little to no retail sales occurring, the company is making the bulk of its revenue from the investments and purchases of its own sales force.

It’s also a shame that distributors such as yourself are STUPID enough to consider an individual to blame in an organisation where 99.64% of the entire sales force are losing money. To the more informed, this would probably sound more like a company failing its sales force with a grossly unfair compensation plan – which certainly hasn’t hindered the company’s ability to make money and the very few at the top of the pyramid who are being enriched as well.

The same ill-informed “tupac shakur” then states “Im still waiting for you scam bloggers to explain why a job is not a pyramid???”

I refer you to the FTC site which provides consumers some basic information and red flags concerning how to identify a pyramid scheme (www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/invest/inv08.shtm or http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm).

A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme – it’s a fraudulent business model on the basis that it’s mathematically predetermined that nearly all participants who enter such schemes (except the very few at the top who got in earliest) will never be able to recoup their investment and will therefore lose.

Pyramid schemes as defined by the FTC, various governing bodies/laws and pretty much ALL countries, are ILLEGAL. No other business model or any other traditional business, are considered fraudulent and they are NOT pyramid schemes by any stretch of the definition.

In light of the above, perhaps it’s you that should be explaining precisely why Monavie isn’t a pyramid…

I can cite over a 100 (and probably dig out another 1000) other cases where the top earners in the company were not at the top! In rare – rare cases I know newcomers that were strong builders at the bottom of the plan that were moved to the top so they could motivate and train the whole company.

It is a fallacy and misconception that ALL PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF A PLAN MAKE THE MOST MONEY. I know some people at the top of plans that are not making, “beans” for income. Some companies they do for sure, but to say ALL COMPANIES is totally completely FALSE!

[Editor's Note: You just have to look at the IDS in the US and Canada to see that the mathematics are predetermined. http://media.monavie.com/pdf/corporate/income_disclosure_statement.pdf and http://media.monavie.com/PDF/IDS/IDS_Mid_Year_2009_Canada.pdf

1. Real Estate Agents (independent contractor salespersons): They spend about $1000 to go to school. They spend $250-500 to get their license. 60% drop out without ever selling a house. Easy research here, talk to anyone in the real estate business!

2. Life Insurance Agents (independent contractor salespersons): Spend several months in on the job training, and in many states have to take an exam. 60% or more only sell one life insurance policy, and that is to themselves.

3. Mortgage Loan Officers (often independent contractor salespersons): Three mortgage brokers that employ these loan officers told me that after months of study, on the job training and taking the test, that my 60% drop out comparison is too low. They said 70-80%.

4. Door to door sales agents (independent contractor salespersons): A friend of mine ran a Kirby vacuum sales crew. The drop out rate was 90% in the first two weeks after training.

5. Car Salespersons: No obscure research here, 80-90% of new salespersons here drop out. Call your local car dealer!

My, my, in just about any direct contact sales field 60% – 70% drop out. and golly – just about the same number of people drop out of college in their freshman year (after spending $5-10K of mom and dad’s money)! A friend of mine sent his daughter to medical transcription school for $2500 and 3 months of her life. She transcribed 10 tapes and quit.

You’re comparing traditional employment (where for the most part a base salary at the very least is paid to employees) to the pyramiding activities of Monavie distributors.

Hate to be the bearer of more information lacking your attention however direct selling and pyramiding are not the same.

There is ample evidence on this site alone that distributors are not engaging in selling of any products and they consume what they buy. Period.

You elude to address the notion that the primary focus within Monavie is recruitment (which is as stated by the FTC – “a time tested tip-off to a pyramid scheme”), the difficulty in selling an over-priced fruit juice and therefore the lack of retail sales to anyone outside the scheme, the rewards which are far more lucrative for recruiting a huge downline than from actual sales, the lack of monitoring to ensure distributors are complying with the 70% rule and rules regarding paying bonuses on sales to “end users”, the compensation plan which is CLEARLY enriching only a very few at the top such as is the case with pyramid schemes – facts which all confirm the underlying business of Monavie is pyramiding, not selling juice.

That you are defending such a farcical venture whereby consumers are DEFRAUDED into investing in a product as a result of the illegal and unfounded health claims made by distributors and invest in a business whereby the truth concerning the success rates amongst the sales force (the majority of which are LOSING money) is withheld from them as at the time they unwittingly sign up is inconceivable to me.

How about you try telling the TRUTH to consumers for a change and then let them make a truly informed decision about whether such a venture is worth their time (which mostly goes unpaid), money and relationships which are also placed in jeopardy as a result of decisions made based on such misinformation.

p.s We’re still waiting for the sources of your BS statistics.

(I cleaned up this thread a bit… there was too much bickering going nowhere.)

I have talked about V8 Fusion Acai Berry, not V8 Splash.

Compare 8 ounces of V8 Fusion Acai Berry vs. MonaVie (click that for the label…)
Calories:
V8 Fusion = 110 calories
MonaVie = 240 calories

Sugar:
V8 Fusion = 26 grams
MonaVie = 24 grams (but it could be more as the 3g reported by MonaVie are likely to be rounded down since they didn’t account for all 5 grams of the carbs in it. If it is actually 3.4g when you multiply it for 8 ounces it could be as high as 27.2g.)

Sodium
V8 Fusion = 70mg
MonaVie = 40mg

Looks like MonaVie has more calories and the same amount of sugar. While V8 Fusion has more sodium, the important thing to note is that 70mg or 40mg of sodium is insignificant when the RDA recommendation is to remain under 2400mg a day.

If you think that V8 Fusion is high in any of the things that Tupac said, break out the same shot glass that you do for MonaVie. The benefit is that you’ll pay 7 cents for that 1 ounce vs. the $1.80 (retail) or $1.20 (wholesale) for MonaVie.

I’m just saying that ounce for ounce the numbers are the same. If you want to compare an ounce of MonaVie to an ounce of V8 Fusion then just divide those by 8. You’ll then find that V8 Fusions Acai berry has fewer calories (13.75 per ounce vs. MonaVie’s 30 per ounce) and the same amount of sugar (3grams vs. 3 grams). The amount of sodium even becomes less of an issue as we are talking 5mg vs. 9mg where a person is allotted 2400mg by the RDA a day. The 4mg sodium difference is next to nothing.

It’s unfair to compare the calorie counts in 8 ounces of juice to 1 ounce of another juice. That’s like comparing a Burger King basic hamburger to a McDonalds Double Quarter Pounder and saying that McDonalds basic ingredients are worse for you because the Double Quarter Pounder has so many more calories and fat than the BK basic hamburger.

Tupac, the price is the key reason why this website exists. If MonaVie wants to make it $2 or $3 (it is only 25 ounces, so I think that’s in line) like V8 Fusion and other juices, then it would cease to be a scam. It is a scam because it’s pretending to be this premium health product (which all evidence shows it is not) at a super premium price. I’ve said it many times. It’s like charging $50,000 for a Yugo and justifying the price of the Yugo by falsely claiming it is something it isn’t.

There is no high fructose corn syrup in V8 Fusion Acai Berry.

Wait a sec.. whats the recommened “dosage” (lol) of this stuff? My wife can easily guzzle 2 cases a month. Isint that 8oz a day? Its late in the day, i cant find my abacus. I did finally talk her down to consuming only 1 case a month but she really complains about not getting enough.

Jim said “They have bought the dream and been taught to not make a critical examination as it would be negative thinking.”

Wow! Well said Jim. So many truths in there.

Jim,

Thanks for the rant, but I really dont care what you think. Its not going to make a difference to me either way. Car salesmen dont recruit?? No they just bug the shit out of you and are sleazy. I shouldnt be responding to your dumbass. If youre not Vogel, Scam, or Aussie I really dont want to hear from you. The rest of you clowns are just cheerleaders.

Whats up fellas? Couple questions.. Jim doesnt Monavie have a pref. cust program where they can make $25 for direct sales? So if a dist wanted to go out and just sell the juice to people they could do that right?? Another question Jim.. When companies have “job fairs” where they recruit you into the business what is the difference? Thanks!

P90X, it doesn’t matter if MonaVie offers a preferred customer program and a direct sales one as long as they still have an MLM one. When they end the MLM program, we can talk.

If you are recruited via a job fair, you are not asked to recruit others through job fairs. The goal is to hire people whose job is to perform work, not recruit others.

But why would they end the MLM structure? Isnt it smart to have people drinking juice that dont want to be in the business and people that want to build a business? I thought a pyramid scam was if you only were people recruiting only? What if I just wanted to sell the juice? The last job fair I went to the company was giving incentives “referral” bonuses for bringing in friends. Thinking about becoming a distributor so thanks for the feedback.

P90X asks “I thought a pyramid scam was if you only were people recruiting only? What if I just wanted to sell the juice?”

From my own contact with Monavie distributors, one of the biggest hurdles to selling the juice is the price – my own friend has confirmed his inability to sell the juice due to this factor alone. I haven’t come across a single distributor who has a retail customer and as I’ve said previously, all of the distributors I’ve come into contact with consume what they buy.

In circumstances where a product isn’t priced competitively and the demand for the product is incentive driven rather than consumer driven, people are left to resort to recouping their investment by recruiting other distributors which then dooms them to the loss rates associated with pyramid schemes.

If you’re interested in becoming a distributor and find yourself in the position where you’re are also unable to sell any product, then perhaps consider looking for another opportunity should be on the agenda also…

I see your point AA.. I guess it comes down to your belief and skill set. My buddy started Under Armour. I remember they were selling moisture wicking t-shirts for 40 dollars. People were telling them it was over-hyped and go buy 6 dollar cotton t shirts instead.

p90x, go and look at reviews with shakeogology how ever you spell it, sorry not a good speller, but u will find tests putting your drink against another and it doesnt do so well, its just another drink, nothing special about it. i dont have the time to find the site on tests i seen on your beachbody drink, im not saying to drink it, but im just saying to reserch first. and for why do some people fail. well i cant speak for anyone else, but for me i am still a distributor, number 2795783, not affraid to speak out, not saying anything bad. anyways i decided to stop because i know deep down i didnt loose, i just realized that i have a heart, and as i was slowly suckering my friends and family to get into this, before any got hurt or lost money i decided i wanted to keep my friends. and the cost to persue this is way too much for me. the travel required and the time away from family all for little money, i got wise and decided to keep my real friends, and not bother with the so called friends that monavie distributors clain when they say surround your self with people like us, the 5 percenttile thinkers making 95 percent of the money which is crap. because thoes friends only wanted to tell you do u have anyone i can show the plan for an hour on this day ill be in your area. never once did they say hey im comming uop wanna go for a coffee, selfish pricks. they never tested me to say hi, only to spend more money on buying tools and go to seminars where i couldnt afford to go, and they promessed me all this stuff. but the biggest hitter was when they made claims and said lies and tried to brainwash me to be a follower to make them richer then me, its not going to happen, i got a family to think about and my family is more important then monavie and its followers, i dont need to spend the next 5 yrs earning a few hundred bucks when i could be taking care and watching my 1 yr old daughter grow up. i love my family and i wont spend my bills money and rent on this company and its toold and system or products. i value all what i have said tonight, and i hope you get the picture,and think hard theres better ways then this.

i forgot to say , and then scam jumped in and talked about the mentors, but i wouldnt waste my time on the guys who actually make money because it took alteast 20 yrs to get where they are now and also they used programs and sites to give them leades which is and i could be wrong, but not allowed , because on this monavie business your to follow how they say to which is allong the lines of talkinbg in person and on the phone and at meetings, not using programs to get ya leads. ayways thoes guys high up wont talk with ya or help ya they will tell ya listen to your upline but i believe they are too hi up the line getting right off guys who are kinda like you if you do join with monavie or other companies like this. and not to mention thoes guys cant even afford their houses and cars and such they r going bankrupt and are losing money all the time because this isnrt steady money, its a chance and when you try to leave they wont let u and will try to make u go broke and lose all ties with the company. i gatta go for a smoke, and then something to eat its late and im starved, been reading too much on hear lol. but what fun it is, and well worth it.

I emailed a gentleman that was featured in the book “your first year in network marketing” His name is Tony Neumeyer was one of the Top Network Marketing Distributors in Canada.

Tony Neumeyer March 7 at 11:02pm Report
Sorry for the delay … Just setting up a new computer and things have been crazy busy. One of the keys is choosing a company that will not disappoint you or screw you. They all try and tell a great story, most are simply crap and will never last. Sorry, I am not trying to break a bubble of yours, just offering you some of the best advice I can. Be careful what you buy into. It can be a great business, it usually isn’t. All the best of success to you!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is why honesty is the best policy always, Sometimes after years of hard effort all resulting in failure some people are continued to be mis-led that they can still reach the top. People are always waving big checks infront of prospects and not giving them the real scoop on what it takes to succeed. Monavie has a 18 fruit blend according to Jeff Grahm VP of product and development. Is there zero nutritional value? I have to believe consuming 18 blend fruit juice at once is not a total scam. Visalus, Noni juice, Xango, Viva.. I can go on and on..A ton of companies make claims that they have the highest anti-oxidants. Shakeology is $119.00 (thats expensive) Visalus vitamins retail for 150.00 a month (for vitamins thats high!) So monavie isnt the only MLM selling overpriced nutritional items. I do have an open mind and have been researching this business model for awhile now. Im still not sure what I think about this pryamid not a pyramid deal. Being in the corporate world, I have seen brain washing-cult like activity from my previous employer. This site has helped a ton, I will continue to do research.

i know i tend to ramble alote and i admit im not as good at talking like the usual guys on this site. but im just trying to help others like they are. but my main point was that eating real fruit is alote better then drinking juice. and you cant replace real food with liquid, its just not the same and nowheres close. hope this helped.

P90X,

Thanks for the story from Tony Neumeyer. My impression is that he’s got the right idea, but he’s falls short by selectively applying bad logic in more than a few places.

Tony said, “Monavie has a 18 fruit blend according to Jeff Grahm VP of product and development.”

- The truth is that it is a 19 fruit juice blend. Not a big deal either way, but it kind of shows that Tony probably just looked at the surface quickly.

Tony said, “Is there zero nutritional value?”

- No one claims there is zero nutritional value. If I put a drop of orange juice is an 8oz. glass of water the result is a drink with nutritional value above zero. So the question becomes how much nutritional value is there. There are numerous tests that show it is next to nothing

Tony said, “I have to believe consuming 18 blend fruit juice at once is not a total scam.”

- I could go to the store and buy 6 different bottles of V8 Fusion (46 ounces each) for $3 each. (Remember this is off the shelf price.) I could then mix them in such a way (1.25 ounces each) so that you can get 18 or 19 different fruits and vegetables in a drink. I could then re-bottle them as my own 18 fruit AND VEGETABLE drink. The 276 ounces of juice that I bought would fill 11 bottles of the 25 ounces bottles that MonaVie is packaged in. I paid a total of $18 (at a retail store no less) for this JuiceScam concoction and I could sell it for around $400 if we use MonaVie’s price of around $37 a bottle. According to Tony’s logic above, he would say this is not a total scam. If that’s not the case, I should probably get a bottling factory quickly because I’d love to turn $18 into $400 that easily.

- Furthermore, there is a misconception that more fruit is better. That’s not necessarily the case. It’s like taking a pizza and deciding to cut it up into 18 slices. You don’t get more pizza than if you just cut it into 8 slices. If you know anything about investing, you know that financial planners will go crazy on you if you have 19 mutual funds. They are much happier if you have 5 mutual funds as more funds don’t significantly help.

Tony said, “Shakeology is $119.00 (thats expensive) Visalus vitamins retail for 150.00 a month (for vitamins thats high!) So monavie isnt the only MLM selling overpriced nutritional items.”

- This is the theory that if other companies are scamming people it’s okay for you to do so too. You could almost replace the above with, “Well James and Joe robbed banks, so it’s okay for John to rob banks too.” In fact he specifically points out that MonaVie is an MLM selling an overpriced nutritional item in that last sentence. I don’t see why anyone would sign up for a job in sales (that’s what a distributor is) where they know the product is overpriced at the outset. Talk about stacking the deck against yourself and setting yourself up for failure.

You are right that I have my work cut out for me. I chose JuiceScam, because I using MonaVie’s trademarked name in a URL is a gray-area of the law. I think there’s been significant work to debunk ORAC scores. You say it’s a jungle out there with the ORAC scores and then you move on to something completely unrelated to juice… That’s just really off topic.

I’m going to say a few words about UnderArmour, but any further conversation (after this) has to be done with me directly via the contact button. I have no desire or people to derail this topic (Buffet and Pampered Chef) any more than it has been been already…

UnderArmour’s products are very much like the Pampered Chef’s products as described above. People can OBJECTIVELY test how they work. There’s not placebo effect like juice… if I give you an apple and say it’s a super apple can you prove it is not the case? The same with MonaVie. Also UnderArmour doesn’t charge 15x or 20x the price of other moisture-wicking shirts. I’ve been in TJ Maxx and bought great moisture-wicking shirts for $10-12… a very cheap price overall. In fact, that $10-12 price is on par with some cotton shirts.

Please read my post on $200 Jordan shoes above… juice is not comparable to fashion…

They both cut. My advice here is to compare a Pampered Chef’s knife to a Whusthof one (I think you’ll find them similar in quality). Or bring your own knife to a Pampered Chef party and cut the same tomato with each. You will likely notice a big difference between the two… in the first minute that you try to use it. Juice can’t be compared as objectively as that… no one downed an ounce of juice and immediate said, “Wow, that makes me feel so much better than V8 Fusion or Welch’s Grape juice, or eating fruit that actually has a lot of fiber and vitamins in it.”

You are trying craft an argument of quality, the same that MonaVie tries to make. It’s smart, because it’s worth paying more for quality products at times (see my Whusthof example above). Unfortunately, there’s no way to measure the quality of MonaVie’s product. In fact, multiple methods have been proposed (ORAC, phenolic acids, anthocyanin measures) and in no test does it beat or even match the much cheaper alternatives.

im glad you understand what all of us hear r saying, the fact that you are listening and understanding means that u have an open mind and heart. awesome.

That’s not that good of a post from MonaVie Horror… it’s almost a complete cut and paste from the MonaVie news release.

Regarding AcaVie, you might be interested in reading my post here: http://www.juicescam.com/acavie/.

It’s amazing to me that it took MonaVie this long to add fiber to their product. Products like FiberSure make it very cheaply and easy artificially add to juice. If I wanted to make a vat of MonaVie-like juice, it would be simple to grab various types of V8 Fusion crumble in a cheap multi-vitamin, add cheap glucosamine, add cheap FiberSure. This is likely very close to what MonaVie is doing (except obviously not using the name brands that I mentioned) as they clearly state that products are “fortified.” The whole thing would probably cost 30 cents for 8 ounces and MonaVie will still probably sell it at $15 for ounces. This should speak volumes of how bad the previous juice was (and also show you that the new version isn’t much better).

I don’t know what new tests will actually test. I doubt MonaVie will compare their product to the very cheap one that I just described above.

I didn’t question that he did post it, my point was that most of it was MonaVie’s marketing, and it doesn’t really change anything. In fact, it supports my original conclusion (here: http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/monavie-scam-was-my-wife-recruited-sell-snake-oil/) that a multivitamin may be just as beneficial. It’s surprising to me that MonaVie didn’t include more vitamins and minerals than what they announced. I guess they are saving something for three years from now, so that they can claim that it now has even more minerals.

The Anti-MLM Zealot is a rare breed. Oh sure, there are a lot of people who may be “anti-MLM,” likely due to one failed experience, or more likely due to them adopting the negative opinion of someone else as their own, without doing any of their own actual investigation. Then there are those who dismiss our industry as somehow shady due to nothing more than the common geometric misconception that our sales organizations form a pyramid shape (ironically, MLM downlines are the only form of business structure that does not form a pyramid). But the Anti-MLM Zealot is someone who is passionate about exposing their negative beliefs and opinions to others – even to the point of obsession. Someone who spends hundreds, if not thousands of hours of their lives searching for evidence to support their cause, creating prolific amounts of anti-MLM material, and contacting media outlets and state and federal regulators in a vain attempt to get someone to pay attention to them.

Now it’s a nutritionally inert preservative-laced juice with a 5-cent vitamin pill and some cheap fiber thrown in. Good lord!

3deep,

Some people just want to help others. I suggest you watch Penn & Teller’s show Bull$hit (hint the $ is not a $)… the episode called Easy Money. It just aired a couple of nights ago. It explains how the MLM industry is destroying people’s finances and that good people are victims of MLM businesses. They also went on in great detail to explain that the only thing that differentiates it from a pyramid is that there’s a product involved. Contrary to what 3deep says, MLM is very much like a pyramid where the main business is recruiting others and not selling product. You can see more about it: http://behindmlm.com/mlm/penn-and-teller-declare-mlm-industry-is-bullshit/

You are quick to paint the Anti-MLM Zealot as:

A) Someone who failed at MLM. Truth: I have not failed at any MLM. This argument is like saying that anyone who opposes crystal meth dealers is a failed dealer themselves.
B) Someone who has negative beliefs. Truth: Helping people not become victims is not negative.
C) Someone looking for attention. Truth: I don’t care for attention. I would be happy shutting down this website when all the MLM juice scams end. Let’s make that trade now…

In the end, you are trying to discredit the person thinking it strengthens your scam. It does not.

3deep said, “if you’re failing to reach your income goal, you are a gullible victim of a scam. If you’re succeeding, you are the greedy, heartless perpetrator of a scam.” Thanks you just described something completely true of pyramid schemes. And you wonder why people compare MLMs to Pyramid Schemes.

We only have your word that you were able to do all the things you claim, and that’s worth nothing. For reasons why see this article about the anonymous postings.

You are the one making the claims that you don’t exist, and then you say that you do exist and that you are insulted. Sorry, 3deep, you aren’t making any sense.

It is an unfortunate fact that conducting a proper due diligence of an MLM program, before joining it, is a rarely performed process. Even those few who attempt it do so in such a way that they are begging to be mislead. Due diligence is one thing – a proper due diligence is quite another.

[Editor's Note: The sales pitches for most MLMs, do not encourage proper due diligence. They work on the victim's emotions using scripts like, "Does an extra $4000 a month sound like something you'd be interested in?"]

There are four ingredients to a profitable, enduring network marketing opportunity: A good compensation plan, a good product line, a good company, and a good support system. Alas, many decisions as to which MLM program to join involve little more than adding up the percentages in the compensation plan brochure. The bigger number wins. Any other contrasting, comparing or appraising of MLM opportunities mainly involves prospective sponsors playing “dueling hype.” The prospect asks each potential success-suiter to basically tell them everything they want to hear and they all eagerly oblige. The one who spins the best tail of multilevel utopia is the victor.

[Editor's Note: Hmm, another person who confuses the terms "network marketing" and "multilevel network marketing." They are very, very different. Fortunately since all MLMs are set up to be "bad compensation plans" for the multilevel network marketer. That's why we don't see profitable, enduring network marketing opportunities.]

Is it fair to blame the high failure rate on the MLM concept or model? [Editor's Note: Is it fair to blame the high failure rate of winning the lottery on the lottery concept or model? Yes.]

Well, what if ten people were given free memberships to a gym which even included a personal trainer. Five went once or twice, saw no immediate results and quit. Two went several times but never followed the advice of their trainer and used all the equipment wrong, then quit. Two others never even showed up once. Only one went on a regular basis, followed the prescribed work out regimen, and after a year gained the body and vitality they desired. Then an anti-gym zealot comes along and claims that 90% of all those that signed up for the gym membership and trainer failed to receive any significant benefits. Although technically true, its not the whole story. Anti-MLM zealots are not telling the whole story. A classic example of this is the “Payout Distribution Study” attempted by Jon Taylor. When he requested payout data from 60 MLM companies he required “even those who only bought a starter kit whether or not they have done anything with it… be included in these statistics, including those who have not sold anything or quit, even after one day.” My point is, why would Taylor want to include those who didn’t go to the gym in a study about the benefits of going to the gym?

[Editor's Note: This is an interesting analogy. However, it is extremely clear that one's ability to go to utilize a gym is dependent on factors they control. Having a successful experience at the gym (especially with personal trainers as you mention above) pretty much means leaving the house and showing up at the gym. That's very, very close to 100% success rate. The equivalent to MLM is always recruiting someone else every time you talk about the product or plan. That doesn't happen. It's not even close. Also, there's a limiting factor of how many people are interested in A) the product itself and B) becoming a salesman. How many MonaVie salesman can a city of 50,000 people support? Probably not many... especially when you consider that there are Xango salesmen, Zrii salesmen, etc. In your gym analogy this is like the gym only being big enough to support one person at a time and getting turned away because it was full capacity.]

The Anti-MLM Zealot can be just as guilty of manipulating data as they often accuse us of being. For example, if ten people join ten MLM programs in succession, then all ten succeed in their tenth company, based on the way Jon Taylor tried to acquired his data, by looking at what percentage failed in each of these ten companies, he could easily show a 90% failure rate (nine of these companies would show these ten people as failures) even though 100% of them are now successful!

[Editor's Note: Who joins ten MLM programs in succession. That sounds like as horrible as the guy you mentioned who was 50-60 of them. These people need to learn from their mistakes and move on. Each time starting over from scratch, many times buying new tools and starter kits... If you know 3 people who have documented evidence of failing the first 9 MLM companies and then succeeding in the 10th, please have them email me through the contact form at the top of the page. (Note they have to show that they didn't bring any previous people from another company, too.) I think I'll be waiting a long time for that.]

Some anti-MLM zealots are passionate about their cause, and they’ve dug themselves into their position far too deep to ever emerge – the obviousness of their folly be damned. Ego is a powerful thing. If someone tries hard enough, long enough, to make a case that the sky is always red by only showing images of desert sunsets, they’re stick to their case no matter how many times you force their heads upward in mid-afternoon.

[Editor's Note: You'll never hear anyone suggest that an anti-MLM zealot is in a cult, or is being brainwashed, or needs an intervention. Yet, you see all three with the MLM-zealots. Your paragraph above describes MLM-zealots more than anti-MLM zealots.]

“Yes, 3deep, no one forces people into MLM at gunpoint, they do it with lies. They do it by brainwashing them by telling them that they can “succeed and get rich” (and now you know why the two are intertwined). You go to MonaVie conference and they trot the same 100 people across the stage and show how they are getting cars and vacations. They don’t trot the hundreds of thousands (perhaps a million plus?) people who have worked very hard to lose money”

The Zealot wants to tell you their opinion of MLM whether you want it or not. They want to warn the world, to save us all from this horrible scam. And when we won’t listen (all ten million of us), they try to save us from ourselves by getting our state and federal government to silence the siren song of MLM that is so violently smashing our dreams into the rocks. When our proverbial ship comes in, the lowly MLM basher will simply tell you not to board it. The Anti-MLM Zealot will try to sink the ship, court-martial the Captain, imprison the crew, burn down the shipyard, and level every port-of-call that allowed it to anchor.

zeal.ot n. 1. A fanatically committed person. 2. A fervent and even militant proponent or opponent of something.

[Editor's Note: You probably shouldn't think that 10 million is a large number in a world of 6.5 billion people. If MLM was a good business opportunity clearly more people would be doing it. Thanks for the definition of zealot... you are more of a MLM-zealot than I am an anti-MLM-zealot. I'm an anti-MonaVie zealot. There's a large difference.]

“It’s amazing that 3deep has posted three times and hasn’t once talked about any product. That’s one of the main points that people here made, and that Penn and Teller made. The product is really not relevant…”

Its about protecting the industry from myths and lies.

[Editor's Note: There are no myths and lies being spread about the industry on this website. Even if the compensation plan of MonaVie wasn't MLM, I would still be against someone trying to sell a nutrition-deficient juice at a price of $12-15 for a 8oz.]

““Remember that 97% of people make less than $8000 a year (many lose money on product) in MonaVie. This is mathematically proven in both the US and Canadian IDS:”

Have you personally interviewed every distributor that has met this criteria to see if they are making money?

1) executed a MonaVie Distributor Application and Agreement; (2) has sponsored at least one person; (3) has received at least one non-retail bonus check; and (4) has been active in any of the eight weeks preceding the bonus period (“active” is defined in the MonaVie Compensation Plan as having generated 100 PV (Personal Volume) in a four-week period). Note that this excludes retail customers, preferred customers, and retailers (those who have received a retail bonus only). An individual who has executed a MonaVie Independent Distributor Application and Agreement,

[Editor's Note: Exactly my point, there are hundreds of thousands of people out there trying to sell the juice who are just unable to sponsor a person.]

Anonymous Aussie Says:
July 7th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
You’re comparing traditional employment (where for the most part a base salary at the very least is paid to employees) to the pyramiding activities of Monavie distributors.

That is why traditional business is a scam. Person in cubicle A works his ass off and gets paid the same amount as person in cubicle B that does nothing. No thanks

[Editor's Note: Wait, MonaVie distributors actually work? What do they produce? I can buy MonaVie on Ebay and Craigslist right now - very easily. Why would I want to compete against websites that run 24-hours a day and can undercut my prices? No thanks.]

3deep states “That is why traditional business is a scam. Person in cubicle A works his ass off and gets paid the same amount as person in cubicle B that does nothing. No thanks”

Really?! That’s probably why person A is most likely to advance in his career and person B is not. Furthermore, both employees have the same opportunities available to them – unlike pyramid schemes such as Monavie whereby the winners are already sitting in their place at the top, at the expense of the hundreds and thousands who are losing.

Even the least skilled workers in traditional employment get paid more than the sales force of Monavie (the majority of which are losing).

A 99.64% loss rate isn’t a business venture worth investing in – only those blinded by greed would consider otherwise.

Even the least skilled workers in traditional employment get paid more than the sales force of Monavie (the majority of which are losing).

General Statement.. Not everyone is losing money Aussie. Im in the industry, I could fill your house up with the ones that are not.

[Editor's Note: I could fill up your house with lottery winners too... the clear implication from that is that MLM and lottery playing are solid business opportunities]

MLM ventures involve a fraction of the start up costs of conventional businesses? Perhaps four or five digits less! Or that an MLM distributorship is the only type of business where a failed businessperson can return their inventory and sales material for a 90% refund (try getting your franchise fee back from McDonalds, or returning all the appliances and fixtures from your failed restaurant). Or that MLM companies provide many services to distributors that conventional business owners would pay thousands of dollars a month for, such as collecting and paying sales taxes, product R&D, warehousing, customer administration, and much more – for around $25 per year. MLM is one of the lowest risk business ventures a person could possibly pursue!

[Editor's Note: That $25 is not typically the whole story. You typically have to purchase all your own product (from $300 to $1000), your own tools (another $500), your own training (another couple of thousand in conference fees, travel, etc...).

In contrast, I have never seen a McDonalds go out of business. I'm sure it's happened, but just that I haven't seen it.]

3deep Says:
July 10th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
“3deep, do you sleep well at night knowing you are peddling fruit punch as a highly nutritional cure-all? That’s exactly what you’re doing. I don’t care how you rearrange the wording, the bottom line is you are taking advantage of people.”

People who make claims for their products being “cure all” are in violation. There are rules for what you cant and can say. I suggest people study that material.

3deep said: “(Reuters) – Shock waves from the global financial crisis are now being felt in almost every corner of working America as companies press the eject button on increasing numbers of employees…Corporate America.. No thanks!”

Dude are you F-ing kidding me? You conspicuously failed to mention that the article you cut and pasted was from 2008, when the economy was at its worst. What point do you think you are making by quoting an outdated doom-and-gloom article that doesn’t apply to the current economic situation in the US. You are as typically disingenuous (and obnoxious) as every other distributor we’ve encountered so far.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE49G5N420081017

Even the most menial job in corporate America offers better wages, benefits, and job security than Monavie offers its distributors. Only a dishonest self-interested Monavie whore would try to argue otherwise — and it’s a losing argument.

3deep said: “Have you interviewed all Monavie dist to see why and IF they are losing money? I cant go off the IDS clamis.”

There is no “IF”; we know that they are losing money. As to why they are losing money, that’s pretty obvious. They are involved in a guaranteed-to-fail crooked pyramid scam based around an insanely overpriced nutritional-void BS fruit punch. It’s like offering you a ‘business opportunity’ to sell second-rate generic Kleenex for $50 a box and then blaming you for not being successful in the endeavor. Give it up man. You arguments are going nowhere. The IDS speaks for itself. If you want to go beyond the numbers and the obvious conclusions in the IDS and interview distributors to find out why they quit, go ahead and get back to us with some firm data.

Food Tech in CA Says:
July 11th, 2010 at 4:57 am
3:12 a.m., 3deep? I thought MonaVie is suppose to help you to sleep?

While you sleep.. I work to become successful.

[Editor's Note: You didn't do too well with that goal by posting a lot of nonsense on this site last night.]

You seem to claim that the 96% is not the case and now you say it’s is no secret. If it is no secret then why doesn’t every discussion of the MLM plan start with, “96% of people will fail”, instead of “Would you be interested in making an extra $4000 a month?” I think it’s clear who the predator and who the victims are here. MonaVie (and other MLM) companies know this and take advantage of this. So yes, it is the company’s fault.]

Prove to me that EVERY distributor starts the conversation that way? You are making a generalization.

[Editor's Response: You make it sound like a generalization is a negative thing. Companies and Distributor uplines give scripts such as what I mentioned to their downlines. If you watched the Penn and Teller video from just a couple of nights ago you'd know that this guy was using such a script.

3deep, you seem to be stuck in the fact that EVERY person must be at fault for it to be the company's fault. You'd be wise to read my articles about Napster got shut down (http://www.juicescam.com/monavie-is-the-next-napster/) - and not EVERY person there was illegally sharing music. Similar thing happened with Limewire recently. I'm sure you can find the court cases there.]

I would like to thanks Monavie and other companies for providing IDS. They deserve a pat on the back. On the surface it doesnt look very impressive. What they dont show is that the average distributor earns 90 dollars a month, but thats because you have a few people doing alot of work, and 90% doing nothing. Its not a flaw in the business model, its the people who dont stay in the business long enough to make money are factored into the IDS. Again its not the MLM model thats flawed, its the people.

[Editor's Response: In fact MonaVie's IDS is so unimpressive that they are embarrassed by it and try to hide it from people. There's no way that 90% are doing nothing. They are working significant hours according to the IDS. The lowest 85% are working about 5 hours a week... 260 hours per year. That's the equivalent of 6.5 workweeks (assuming the typical 40 hour workweek). That's almost two months of their life spent working to lose money.

It is clearly a flaw in the business model, because each person who shows up in an area like a Blue Diamond, requires more of the lower ranking people to be signed up underneath them. Thus you still get the same percentages. That's why the US and Canadian IDS have the same distribution of wealth across the group. If you only took the 10% that you say are doing a lot of the work and kept them throwing out the other 90% that you claim are doing nothing, the company would lose a pile of its money. If you are so against these 90% of people doing nothing, let's see MonaVie fire them and focus their efforts on helping the best people.]

Companies and Distributor uplines give scripts such as what I mentioned to their downlines. If you watched the Penn and Teller video from just a couple of nights ago you’d know that this guy was using such a script.

Yes, they give you scripts but that doesnt mean you have to use them. I would not buy anything from that guy on the video. He didnt even bring his product with him.

[Editor's Response: My point was that such scripts are being used. The scripts do not tell people that 96% of MLMs fail (I think it's actually greater), which is you say is no secret. So let's make it a required disclosure like mutual funds' warnings that it may lose value or smoking may be harmful to your health. Let's not just sit back there and expect everyone to know it. Plus, since MLMs are so unsuccessful and rare a lot of people never heard of how they work when they are approached.]

Why is it that many states conduct lotteries which take in tens-of-millions of dollars more than they pay out, mostly from the middle and lower class, which have a one-in-ten-million chance of winning, but these same states will investigate, file suit, and even shut down some MLM opportunities because they employ a “luck factor?”

[Editor's Response: The revenue from lotteries go back to help the residents of the state. A private company is not allowed to run such lotteries. If you want to compare your private MLM to be escape the law in those states, I highly recommend you get them by the states themselves.]

Why is it that any other kind of business that involves sales can induce and entice prospective sales people to join their company by displaying the earnings of their top sales people, and openly discussing the “income potential” of the compensation plan, but it’s considered “illegal” in network marketing?

[Editor's Response: Do you mean multilevel network marketing and not network marketing? I think it's because other kinds of businesses focus on the practice of selling their product, while MLMs focus on recruiting other people to sell the product. I don't know other businesses that rely on the unsustainable nature of multilevel recruiting as a business.]

I want to clarify something about that last question. I’m not an advocate of high earnings claims in MLM. But none-the-less, it infuriates me to no end to hear stories of top distributors being prosecuted for displaying evidence of their incomes, even with a stern disclaimer. Prosecuted for telling the truth!

[Editor's Response: You can direct your frustration to the FTC. There's no need to talk about it here.]

Why is it that if you create a company hierarchy where all those at the bottom can only succeed by climbing over those above them, and those above them are doing everything they can to make sure they stay below them, this is considered a legal, legitimate pursuit of the “free enterprise” system. However, if you create the exact same hierarchy, but allow those at the bottom to create, and be at the top of, their own hierarchies, with unlimited support, training and encouragement from all those above them, this is considered a “pyramid scheme?”

[Editor's Response: Please study how pyramid schemes work and why they are not sustainable. Here's a hint: the people at the end end have no one else left to recruit and they bare all the costs for the entire structure. Now realize that MLMs are the same. Traditional companies don't rely on the losses of the lowest people in the workforce to sustain the higher ranking people.]

why is it that if a large conventional business, employing thousands of people, goes bankrupt and/or is on the verge of closing, their employees, and many times the company itself, is pitied and people root for them to survive? But if an MLM company, employing just as many honest, hard working people shuts down, it’s a scam.

[Editor's Response: Again, see above how pyramid schemes work and realize that a MLM is the same. Also you may look at how even the FTC says that "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes." - http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/invest/inv08.shtm

3deep said: “J-O-B Just over Broke. No thank you.”

And Monavie? Well below broke!

It only seems to be MLMers who show such disdain for “JOBS”. In fact, JOBS is probably the single most important issue for American voters and the vitality of the job market is what often makes or breaks politicians. Pretty much everyone in America wants a job. The predatory disphits at Monavie, however, pretend, incredibly, that “job” is a dirty word. No one with the ability to get a half decent job would bother with the Monavie “opportunity”. That includes most college graduates and anyone with marketable skills.

Monavie preys on the unemployable and uneducated. You’re trying to convince these disadvantaged individuals that spending copious amounts of their own money and pressuring friends/family to join the Monavie biz is going to make them rich and will enable them to someday be just like those sickening morally-bereft Black Diamonds (driving expensive sports cars, flying to on private jets to exotic locales, lighting Montecristo’s with $100 bills, etc.), when the truth is that they have a better chance of being struck by lightning while scratching off a winning lottery ticket.

To make matters worse, these entrapped suckers (under the guidance of Monavie’s executives/senior distributors) must resort to lying about Monavie being a wonder cure and having nutritional properties that it simply doesn’t have. You all have been lying about the product and the business since day 1. And you’ve leveraged thieves, fraud artists, and rapists to do it. You’re worse than meth dealers IMO. At least meth dealers don’t try to portray their criminal activities as legal, patriotic, or charitable, the way you Monavie clowns do.

MonaVie distributor 2471942

Mr. 3deep, it would behoove you to comply with FTC guidelines and MonaVie’s Terms and Conditions and state explicitly that you are a MonaVie distributror and post your ID number. Just a friendly reminder.

It seems there are a lot of arguments going on about the binary structure of MonaVie’s payment plan. Being an analytical person as well as studying to be an engineer and lawyer, I have looked into the structure and analyzed the heck out of it.

First of all, it seems that some of you believe the higher level earners (Black Diamond and above) seem to be moraly bereft, to quote Vogel. There also seems to be allegations of a luck factor attributed to one’s success in this endeavor.

First of all, let’s disregard the product. The product is a very sensitive issue I can see, so let’s just pretend the product is a totally legit product called Magi-Juice (that’s actually a very catchy name; if I ever make a juice company, I’m naming it that. Ya’ll better not steal it!) that happens to cost 130 bucks per one month’s consumption. I assume we are dealing with a consumable product because I am not sure how a one-time buy product would work in this business model.

So we have a distributor. Let’s call him Bob. Statistically speaking, chances are that he was sponsored by someone he rarely sees: perhaps once a month. So we can assume that most distributors and their sponsors have an entirely different group of friends; I.e. no mutual friends at all. This is the case with me and my sponsored people.

Bob has an excellent support team: I believe my first leg dropped to 10 people within a month of being enrolled. Why is this? I’m getting people in my business and I haven’t even learned much yet. This is because of the way TEAM, the leadership development company I work with, recommends to build the business. Every new person puts two people into their first leg, called the “Tap root” and then they can start their second leg. This has a double purpose: first, to help franchise the business (explained later) and second, to get training on how to build the business.

Once Bob starts his second leg after getting his two people in, he sponsors another two new people after around… two months. Let’s say these two new people just want to remain active, so they have 100 PV shipment every month. Let’s say his “tap root” has 10 people on 100 PV each. So we have a big leg, at 1000 PV per month, and a lesser leg, at 200 PV per month. Team commissions says he gets paid 10% of the volume that runs up his lesser leg. So he gets 20 bucks. The lesser leg resets and the greater leg deducts 200, so it goes to 800.

The two new people Bob sponsored will follow the training tactic Bob learned: they get two new people in each into their tap roots, and then start their second leg. But the new people’s tap root are merely Bob’s second leg. So another month passes and the two new people get two new people in each. So Bob now has a total of six people in his secnd leg, and he only sponsored two. And what does Bob teach the four new people? And the eight new people they bring in? As you can see, it can potentially explode. Potentially. And if Bob was able to train around ten people under him really well, and get them motivated, he could potentially get up to Gold because he’s franchised his business. He trained a few other people really well and they begin moving forward, because their own business depends on it.

Fact is, it can sometimes take people up to one year to get their two people into the tap root. Hell, one of the people I’ve sponsored has only sponsored one person, and he’s been in for almost 7 months. Not even close to starting his second leg. But his market is the same as mine: broke college students who only wanna party.

Now that example was to contrast with the pyramid scheme example, where a guy gets ten people to pay him $100 a month, and they each get ten people to pay them $100 a month, but they have to give half to the guy who got them in…

Distributors make no money off of the $40 sign-up fee it costs to get started. Heck, this fee is waived for people who enroll in autoship.

Rather, the distributors make a 10% sales volume commission off of the product they were able to move in a one-week period. I used one month above but MonaVie has weekly cycles, not monthly.

What I found interesting about TEAM’s approach is that it makes it so that the tap root is infinitely growing– most likely faster than your second leg can ever grow unless you manage to sponsor an entire village or something. This ensures that you focus on growing one leg only–your second leg. It allows a more focused business building. And minus the first two people you got in, everyone else you sponsor after that, and the first two people they sponsor, will add to your sales volume.

Also, it prevents the structure from becoming a pyramid, where you can never outearn the people on top of you. Bob could easily make more money than his sponsor by building a strong second leg and working hard at it and growing it bigger (in volume) than his taproot. Possible? Yes, I know a few people whose second legs have surpassed their taproots. Probably? Let’s just say that those results are not typical.

And that’s just looking at the team commissions part of it. I don’t quite understand the other ways of generating income, you’d have to look at the Magi-Juice compensation plan to fully understand how it works.

So barring the fact that MonaVie may or may not be an overpriced product, I see nothing pyramidal about the structure.

As for the IDS… all I can say is that there are a lot of people who sign up to be a MonaVie distributor, but do nothing but drink juice. The monthly case keeps him active, so he appears on the IDS. Its funny when that happens because that person’s sponsor actually makes less money off of a distributor than a preferred customer. He makes 10% off of a distributor and 25% off of a preferred customer.

Some people make it to Star and decide to stop building the business–but continue to drink the juice. Generally when a person hits Bronze, he doesn’t drop out after that.

That is all I have to say about the IDS.

Pertaining to the top earners…

TEAM is a leadership development company which I believe was partnered with Amway until around 2007. For whatever reason, TEAM left Amway for MonaVie. If I had to say anything about it, it was either because Amway had some unethical practice (and I believe that “Perfect Water” is an absolute sham) or because they felt that MonaVie was a better company. And after being around people in the TEAM, I know that they are well-intentioned people who go out of their way to help their downline. “Oh, that’s just because they make money if they help their downline!” Not so, some speakers spend their own money to fly from the East Coast to the West Coast to tell their story, and no one in the room even knows anyone on the speaker’s team. The people are incredible, positive people–and I know that if MonaVie turns out to be a scam, we will jump ship to another MLM company.

Rasheed said: “First of all, it seems that some of you believe the higher level earners (Black Diamond and above) seem to be moraly bereft, to quote Vogel. There also seems to be allegations of a luck factor attributed to one’s success in this endeavor.”

(1) They ARE morally-bereft. There’s no getting around it. When the Black Diamonds (Brig ‘Hartless’ and Jason ‘Lyin’) and Monavie execs (bumbling clod Randy Marsh) make videos that feature illegal disease cure testimonials, then they are breaking the law. Selling nutritionally-void fruit juice as a cancer cure to little old ladies at church is nothing short of revolting. I hope they all burn in hell for it. (2) No one has ever said that success in Monavie has anything to do with luck. The most successful people in Monavie did not reach their current position by following the system that’s sold to other entry-level distributors. They basically started at the top because of sweetheart deals, nepotism, and early placement. Luck had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Rasheed said: “First of all, let’s disregard the product. The product is a very sensitive issue I can see, so let’s just pretend the product is a totally legit product called Magi-Juice (that’s actually a very catchy name; if I ever make a juice company, I’m naming it that. Ya’ll better not steal it!) that happens to cost 130 bucks per one month’s consumption.”

No, I will not entertain this irrelevant scenario in which you disregard Monavie’s proven lack of value. Monavie is worthless fruit punch being marketed as a cure-all wonder tonic. One needs to look no further than that. It is extremely dishonest to launch into an argument about the binary structure while ignoring this fundamental fact.

Rasheed said:“So barring the fact that MonaVie may or may not be an overpriced product, I see nothing pyramidal about the structure.”

I would venture to say that you don’t see it because (a) you are obtuse (b) you know that it is a pyramid and don’t care (c) you are ignorant because you haven’t bothered to look at the FTCs definitions of a pyramid scheme. When a product is used as bait for a business that focuses its efforts not on retail sales but on recruitment of distributors and sales to its own sales force, then that meets the definition of a product-based pyramid scheme. Lastly, stop evading the issue about Monavie’s lack of value. It clearly IS an overpriced, essentially worthless, illegally-marketed product.

Rasheed said: “As for the IDS… all I can say is that there are a lot of people who sign up to be a MonaVie distributor, but do nothing but drink juice. The monthly case keeps him active, so he appears on the IDS.”

I call BS once again. You are WRONG! Those who are included in the IDS are ACTIVE distributors -– it says so right in the fine print that those who are defined as distributors have “sponsored at least one person” and “received at least one non-retail bonus”. These are not casual drinkers as you misleadingly suggested.

And why would Monavie require those people who merely wish to drink the juice at a discount to become distributors in the first place? They could just offer a wholesale discount for bulk purchasers without requiring them to sign a distributor agreement. The simple fact is that they don’t want people to merely drink the juice; they want everyone to be a distributor.

But the question that I have now is why would you distort the facts about the IDS like you did? Is it a case of ignorance or purposeful lying? Will you step up and admit your mistake, shoulder the responsibility, and recognize that you are part of the problem?

Rashed said: “Some people make it to Star and decide to stop building the business–but continue to drink the juice. Generally when a person hits Bronze, he doesn’t drop out after that.”

First of all, so what? The vast majority of distributors never make it to Bronze level anyway. Secondly, you pulled that statement out of you’re a$$. It’s hearsay and you know it. You have no reliable source on which to base such claims.

Thanks for the explanation of how compensation plan works. I was with you up until you got the part where it wasn’t a pyramid. I understand that it is possible to recruit more people in that the person above you in the right legs, and thus out-earn that person. However, I have a few points to make:

1) Is this typical? Just because it is possible, it doesn’t necessarily means it happens. How can obtain data to find out what percentage of distributors make more than their sponsor?

2) What you described is still a mathematically unsustainable pyramid. You have Bob recruiting people who recruit people, who recruit people. I don’t know how it’s not possible to see that this requires infinite people all drinking MonaVie.

3) Your disregard for the product is amazing. You don’t even pretend to care about the product. It’s clear that you are just in business for the recruiting aspect and the compensation plan, especially when you say, “we will jump ship to another MLM company.” You’ve crossed the line where you are not a distributor of the product, but a recruiter. That is the biggest sign that you are not involved in a pyramid scheme. What if TEAM decides to jump ship and push a product that is the equivalent of “Perfect Water” (something that you said you believe is an absolute sham)?

4) Your ending of “if MonaVie turns out to be a scam” sounds like there is some question to it. There isn’t any question. No one has come up with anything that shows it’s better than a variety of juices you can get at the store for a lot less money. It is the “Perfect Water” of juices, yet you continue to support the company.

Rasheed:

Orrin Woodward, leader of TEAM, surprised his followers when they moved to MonaVie from Amway, given his earlier proclamations that his goal was to create a Walmart of the Internet. The product doesn’t matter to TEAM; what matters is that the constant flow of tools and function tickets continue week in, week out.

Orrin has stated his undying love for Dallin Larsen, so MonaVie must not be a scam. There must be some doubt in your mind that it could be a scam; why else would you be doubting your own leaders?

You wrote that:

Yes, I know a few people whose second legs have surpassed their taproots. Probably? Let’s just say that those results are not typical.

If those results are not typical, what does a typical organization look like? Pyramid, shall we say?

I think there’s a part of you who doesn’t want to believe that you’ve been hoodwinked into a scam. As an engineer, you’re trying to justify and rationalize your decision to stay in. The faster you come to the realization that you’ve been misled, the faster you’ll be able to get out of TEAM and MonaVie. There are plenty more opportunities out there that can reward you financially and personally. Go out and find them!

Seems like I’m generating a lot of activity this morning :P

For the sake of time, I’ll reply to MS and a blanket reply to the rest.

Answer to all your questions MS, is no, naturally. We’ve always been taught to grow our downline because it creates a loyal community, not to sell. I’ll shoot my sponsor another email after he replies to the previous one I sent him about FTC guidelines.

For the rest of you (and MS), I would like to express my deepest appreciation for opening my eyes. I was ignorant of the law… and hey, I want to be a lawyer to study the law, mainly so I can keep people from making stupid mistakes. So please get the notion out of your head, mysterious, that lawyers lie to make a living. My intention is to become a private practicing patent attorney (who hardly ever goes to court) or a criminal prosecuting attorney. If I become the latter, I’ll use whatever evidence I have to do whatever I need to do. The evidence does the talking, I do the convincing, the jury makes the decision, judge makes the verdict. No lying is needed.

As for myself, I’ll continue reading the books that I’ve received from TEAM, because there undeniably beneficial. I’ve long since canceled my MonaVie autoship because I lost my job. Hopefully I’ll find an endeavor that can reward me for the work I put in.

Thanks again guys.

Rasheed states “First of all, let’s disregard the product.”

It’s very hard to disregard a product which is the first of many inherent problems within Monavie who purport to be a direct selling company of fruit juice.

As has been discussed, it is grossly overpriced – I’m certain you weren’t spending in the vicinity of $150.00 per month on fruit juice previously and from the tone of your post, it appears that your demand for the product is opportunity driven rather than demand as a consumer which is hardly a solid foundation upon which a business should be built, I would’ve thought…

Rasheed then goes on to describe the method by which he is building his business – the focus of which is recruitment, which is how his downline whom he is teaching are in all likelihood operating, as is his upline whom he is duplicating.

Rasheed also states “Let’s say his “tap root” has 10 people on 100 PV each. So we have a big leg, at 1000 PV per month, and a lesser leg, at 200 PV per month. Team commissions says he gets paid 10% of the volume that runs up his lesser leg. So he gets 20 bucks. The lesser leg resets and the greater leg deducts 200, so it goes to 800.”

Firstly, what’s glaringly obvious is the absence of any selling of the product – there are no sales targets and no mention of customers (i.e those not associated with the scheme) being sought and again, this is despite the fact that Monavie purport to be a direct selling company of fruit juice.

Going back to the first point, in circumstances where a product isn’t priced competitively and the demand for the product is incentive driven rather than consumer driven, people are inevitably left to resort to recouping their investment in other ways – in an MLM such as Monavie, that would be by recruiting other distributors.

It should cause great concern that the main focus of the distributors’ activities within Monavie is recruitment (this is precisely the activities being undertaken by my own friend and every distributor I’ve come in contact with) and the compensation plan which appears to reward distributors to a far greater extent for recruiting a huge downline than from product sales alone (of note is that after purchasing/selling a single case of Monavie which costs a distributor in the vicinity of $150.00 inclusive of shipping and taxes, the distributor can expect to receive only $10.00 – or more accurately, about 6.7% in bonuses from such a purchase/sale) – particularly when you consider what constitutes a pyramid scheme.

A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme rather than from profits generated from the sales of goods or services from those outside the scheme – with the revenue being merely an internal transfer up the chain to pay earlier investors.

Such schemes are a form of fraud – they are unable to deliver on their promises of an income opportunity taking into consideration it’s predetermined that nearly ALL participants (in the vicinity of 99% or greater) who enter such schemes (except the very few at the top who got in first) will never be able to recoup their investment and will therefore lose.

The FTC warns against schemes which purport to sell a product but where the price of the product is inflated, where there are ongoing requirements to purchase costly inventory or where “sales” occur amongst the participants rather than the general public. As stated by the FTC “If any of these conditions exist, the purported “sale” of the product or service may just mask a pyramid scheme that promotes an endless chain of recruiting and inventory loading.”
http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm

If you consider that some of the red flags associated with pyramid schemes such as the focus being on recruitment, a lack of any revenue being derived from those not associated with the scheme, the rewards being far more lucrative from building a downline than from product sales alone and the 99% or greater loss rates seen with product based pyramid schemes, you would be hard pressed to argue that Monavie doesn’t in fact tick each and every single one of these boxes.

Rasheed states “Now that example was to contrast with the pyramid scheme example, where a guy gets ten people to pay him $100 a month, and they each get ten people to pay them $100 a month, but they have to give half to the guy who got them in…”

Your interpretation of a pyramid scheme is rather inaccurate – of course some people are going to have access to bigger networks and thus recruit more people into the venture however those at the top of the pyramid of Monavie have already secured their place and the slice of the pie pretty much guaranteed and the majority of participants are already in the bottom ranks where no profits are being made.

Rasheed states “What I found interesting about TEAM’s approach is that it makes it so that the tap root is infinitely growing– most likely faster than your second leg can ever grow unless you manage to sponsor an entire village or something. This ensures that you focus on growing one leg only–your second leg. It allows a more focused business building. And minus the first two people you got in, everyone else you sponsor after that, and the first two people they sponsor, will add to your sales volume.”

What you are duplicating is a system that is responsible for consumer losses in the vicinity of millions of dollars – the losses within Amway (which were further contributed to by TEAM through the tools business) are in the vicinity of 99% which is not unlike the losses demonstrated amongst Monavie’s sales force as confirmed by the IDS and which are not unlike the losses seen in product based pyramid schemes.

Rasheed states “Also, it prevents the structure from becoming a pyramid, where you can never outearn the people on top of you.”

From the grossly over-priced product making retail sales impossible for distributors to achieve through to the compensation plan which provides so little reward to the front line distributor for making the actual sale and which allows for, promotes and offers the greatest rewards for an endless chain of recruitment are all factors which guarantee the pyramidal structure and pyramiding activities of distributors – and the losses associated with such schemes.

Rasheed states “So barring the fact that MonaVie may or may not be an overpriced product, I see nothing pyramidal about the structure.”

I beg to differ for the reasons as outlined above.

Rasheed also states “As for the IDS… all I can say is that there are a lot of people who sign up to be a MonaVie distributor, but do nothing but drink juice. The monthly case keeps him active, so he appears on the IDS. Its funny when that happens because that person’s sponsor actually makes less money off of a distributor than a preferred customer. He makes 10% off of a distributor and 25% off of a preferred customer.”

As confirmed by Vogel, the distributors included in the IDS are all distributors who are considered active – thus having sponsored people and made the relevant purchases to ensure being qualified to receive commissions.

You cannot speak for the remaining distributors who all signed a distributorship agreement, paid the application fee and who may not have been able to sign anyone up despite their efforts and who may not have had the financial resources to purchase the ongoing minimum monthly shipment in order to qualify for commissions.

Monavie does not provide data distinguishing distributors from genuine bona-fide customers and based on the statements of distributors such as yourself (and my own friend) who confirm little to no selling activities, it would seem that withholding this information serves them well as this information would reveal precisely how much of the revenue is also being derived from the investments and purchases of its own sales force.

I’m certain that if you’re as open minded to the facts as you suggest, then surely you’d be able to make a judgment call based on your own experiences, what you have witnessed and your own interpretation of the abundance of information available which clearly points to the most reasonable conclusion – that Monavie is nothing more than fraud on a grand scale and that they have only escaped legal scrutiny because it’s not hard to look good on paper (although there are anti-pyramiding rules in place, you know these aren’t enforced) and due to a lack of complaints from distributors who either remain ignorant as to how they got defrauded or who are either embarrassed or fear the consequences of making a complaint from those in their upline or downline with whom they have relationships of some form or another.

I can’t see that there’s any excuse for your ongoing ignorance concerning the law and in identifying a business model which is clearly so inherently flawed.

Rasheed,

If your experience here has helped to enlighten you as to the scheme that is Mona vie. That it is a product based pyramid scheme inflicting losses on almost all who join and that the juice itself is nothing more than a nutritionally lacking benzene laced punch, then there is a favor I would ask of you.

Im sure in the motivational materials you enjoy you have read the importance of doing what is right, moving outside your comfort zone and doing what others might not. Now let’s see you put these principles into place. While uncomfortable, wouldn’t you agree that the right thing to do at this point would be to contact all you involved in this scheme and explain to them what you have learned. I would also suggest you share your findings with your upline if you believe they are honest people who would not knowingly defraud thier downline.

The poster here referred to as Humiliated has mentioned that she went to all she involved in mo naive, explained what she had learned and asked forgiveness. This must have been difficult and humbling and I respect her greatly for her actions. Wouldn’t you agree this is the responsible course of action?

Good post man! Yes, by all means bring whatever you have to the table; let’s look it over and keep the dialog going.

Thanks Vogel! My brother and I will be performing more research and I will list my findings … well, I dunno where I can list my findings on this site. They will most likely be irrelevant to Warren Buffett and Pampered Chef lol.

Jim, just wondering–are you Muslim? I saw you mention Allah above and just wanted to know if you were Muslim. I am.

Anyway, I did MonaVie for about… I started Oct 09. I don’t feel like doing math right now… but less than a year for sure.

To be on system simply means to be on their bi-weekly (that means every two weeks right?) … thing. Every two weeks, you get (on “basic” system) 4 CD’s (two CD’s per week) and every four weeks, you get a book. So CD’s of the week and books of the month.

Being on system also includes attending seminars, the speakers being Emerald level or above. And going to leadership conventions, where the six “policy council members” (to be on PC you must be Hawaiian Blue Diamond or above) speak. I’ve never been to a convention but lemme tell you that they promote it like nothing ever. $120 for a ticket, plus the plane ride (they’re usually waay far away from CA, like this next one’s gonna be in Wisconsin) and hotel and you end up spending possibly $1000 over for a single weekend. My friend’s been to every one since he’s started in December and he’s only sponsored one person, so I wonder exactly how much he’s getting for his buck.

Distributors… are expected to be on system, “show the plan” (share the opportunity) with 4 people a week, attend Tuesday open meetings, go to monthly seminars, attend leadership conventions, etc…

Motivational training is actually really good. They know how to get you fired up. Basically, identify your dream, touch it (go browsing for cars, houses, etc), feel it, and it will motivate you to do what it takes to achieve your dream. I really enjoyed that part.

Handling objections? We use what Bettger uses in his book “How I raised myself from failure to success in selling” (a very good book). Basically, say, “I know how you feel. I felt the same way. Here’s what I found.”

Also what Chris Brady recommends saying is, “besides that, is there anything else?”

Also just using the tools you buy to convince the other person that the product and/or joining the business would be a good idea.

Now to be honest, I hardly ever showed the plan. I’m a 20 year old college student studying engineering and law on the side. I simply don’t have time to show the plan 4 times a week especially since I have about an hour commute between home and class. And quite frankly, I’m glad I hardly showed the plan. Fewer people to enlighten about my findings!

Anyway, I actually really enjoyed the TEAM system. I never listened to the CDs because my car does not have a CD player (long story short, it got stolen, along with the climate control unit) but the books were really good. I liked the books because they came from external people who have achieved success in their own ways.

The TEAM system taught me a lot of things about being persistent and how to manage my life effectively, as well as teachings of integrity and honesty. However… at the same time, it was the very values of integrity and honesty that make me want to condemn the TEAM. Ironic how that works, isn’t it? lol…

Let me know if you want anymore information.

Rasheed,

If you have findings of any kind, you can always email them to me (there’s a contact link in the purple bar above) and we (or just me if you prefer) can work together to get new article topics written based on this information. I realize that I don’t have articles on all topics of MonaVie, it is a work in progress. I’m not very motivated to work on new topics since it seems interest in MonaVie is fading, so this whole website may be irrelevant before too long. (Guess I’ll just move on to another juice scam.)

Thanks MS. I’ll keep that in mind. I’ve already dug up enough information to make me not want to be involved with TEAM or MonaVie. There’s a plethora of MLM juices that are successful, like XanGo, Xowii, Agel (a gel, not a juice), etc. You could start there since they all begun in Utah lol…

I’ve seen my sponsor say “besides that is there anything else” and usually, it’s “no.” Then my sponsor focuses on the first point (usually its, “I have no time/money”) and they always say, “exactly. That’s why you need to do this.” I never thought it was a cop-out in any way, but upon further reflection, that’s the LAST reason you’d need to join MonaVie. Unless you LIKE not having time and money.

I try to put honesty and integrity before greed (just the want for money so I can pay for school more easily). So if I’d never sell a product I couldn’t believe in. If MonaVie hadn’t “worked” for me i’d have never promoted it to anyone. But because I saw results, I wanted to share it with my friends and so I gave them free samples to try it. But now that I know its all just a sham, I have actually told my mom to stop drinking it and to start using a different form of glucosamine, and to take a multivitamin. I always want to look for the best for the person to whom I’m selling. I never want them to feel “sold” or “buyer’s remorse.” I want them to know they got their value for their money. Not only is that good for my integrity, it’ll not spark hard feelings towards me, it’ll make them want to refer me to their friends, and a bunch of other benefits.

That’s why I don’t like using a script to sell. I would feel like I’m just talking to another number and not a human. I feel like things are better when they’re personalized. That’s just me though.

Rasheed states “I’ve seen my sponsor say “besides that is there anything else” and usually, it’s “no.” Then my sponsor focuses on the first point (usually its, “I have no time/money”) and they always say, “exactly. That’s why you need to do this.” I never thought it was a cop-out in any way, but upon further reflection, that’s the LAST reason you’d need to join MonaVie. Unless you LIKE not having time and money.”

This is precisely the way in which my own friend was taught here in Australia – they are taught to elicit a person’s wants and needs and then use that information to relay the appropriateness of the venture to that person’s needs (without ever giving any consideration to same).

Like Rasheed pointed out, normal business practices would suggest that a person without money to be able to invest would strongly suggest that that person wasn’t a suitable candidate – this type of poor advice only benefits Monavie who are the ones prospering irrespective of the numbers of investors losing.

Monavie Scam, I’ve said this before but I truly find the entire MLM industry predatory and loathsome – misrepresentations are rife, there’s much secrecy about what these companies make in terms of profits and particularly they’re secretive about the amount of revenue earned from the sales force. Plus lets not forget that nearly all participants lose! The whole concept of exploiting relationships for financial gain seems so unethical…

“But there are legitimate MLM companies.”

Such as??? Are you going to become an Avon Lady Rasheed? Do any of these MLM companies have products that could survive in the retail sector (ie, products that offer value at a fair price)?

MLM is a ridiculously inefficient way to market products, hence the insane markups that are required to keep the schemes afloat. You do realize that you can be a salesperson who works on commission without having to resort to MLM, right?

Vogel:

AA touched on some, but the obvious example is Pampered Chef lol. And no I’m not gonna be an “Avon lady” because i’d have no way of verifying any claims since I do not use the products myself. Therfore i’d be unable to really push my product since I don’t believe in it.

And yeah, I know you can be a salesperson without doing an MLM. But people looking into sales don’t disregard MLM as a profession. And unsuccessful salespeople run away from MLM.

AA:

It is completely possible to start at the bottom of an MLM, recruit no one, and merely sell your own product, and still make a nice sum of money (provided there’s an actual demand and need for your product in the market, and not something like MonaVie). The person who sponsored you, likely your friend, will also be benefited slightly without taking away from your earnings. That’s why I personally like MLM’s, as long as they’re executed correctly.

And while I agree MOST people do not want to sell, my wording was “Many.” While its pointless to get into a discussion of semantics, successful salespeople get paid a LOT of money. Factor in the fact that you don’t need a formal education, just good people skills and enthusiasm, it becomes a good standalone profession.

The thing is, salesman has a negative connotation these days, with used car salesmen being the scum of the earth (some can be, others can be nice). And there are tons of dishonest salesmen who feel they need to lie about their product (not pointing any fingers, but in light of recent discussion, I think we all know who I’m talking about lol). They may attain short-term success, but as more and more people catch on to the lies, no one buys from them a second time. That’s why awareness sites like this are good.

So in the long run, usually dishonest salespeople dissolve. What goes around comes around, and the most conniving person in the world can’t evade what comes around.

Not sure,

You can look up the compensation plan on the MonaVie website. I don’t know why they would evade your questions on how to make money.

I’m an ex-MonaVie distributor so I know the ups and downs of MonaVie, but I’ve jumped off that ship since then.

I’m wondering though, do you remember the speaker of the seminar? Every seminar I went to they always said, “If you don’t enjoy this seminar, talk to the person who brought you here for your money back.” And I’d like to see if they actually hold their word in that regard.

Not sure,

Ah I see. I think I may know who you’re talking about, especially since you mentioned obese. He’s a nice guy, I really respect him. Shame he had to fall into this.

Whoever invited you there is really inept though, I can tell you that. They’re supposed to tell you to spend a million dollars to buy some tools and grow yourself and then you’ll start making billions!! I’ve never gone to a meeting/seminar where they didn’t promote the tools.

Yeah, I know he said that. But I was pointing out that I only know two really obese people who are at the 200k level, as he’d mentioned.

Kissing up? Vogel, that’s not like you. Who the hell kisses up to someone by calling them “obese?”

I’m not going anywhere. Not making any arguments. I’m merely saying that if the person Not sure is talking about is who I am thinking of, he’s a nice guy.

I’m not trying to talk about how the higher ups are fat and unhealthy, I wanted to know who the person was. No logic needed.

Why are you insistent on knowing his name?

Not sure states “I really wish I could remember, most of the time that I was listening I was just thinking about how mad I was that a “friend” would take me to this, I went to this thinking that it was a business opportunity not this, it just felt like everyone there were keeping something from me..”

I remember feeling exactly the same way – although I was brought as a guest, it was pretty obvious that those of us guests were in fact the prospects.

I saw people around me signing up on the spot and it just made my jaw drop that anyone would do something without thinking it through or seeking a second opinion.

You were right to trust your instincts – especially given things aren’t only kept from people, they’re flat out distorted and misrepresented.

Overall I try to be very open minded, but for now I will just say that most of us grow up being taught and believing that you should go to college get good grades and then you can get a good job, if you really think about it, it is biased, but it works for most of us. With the speakers I herd they felt as if their parents were liars and the people around them were as well because their advice didn’t get them where they wanted. In a one hour presentation they are crazy to believe that I would drop my lifes plans because of what they say.

On this site I was pleased to see that there was a section on the placebo effect, I did labs when I was younger and one was that I had a group of 6, I was given the responsibility of giving out these “pills”, I told them that by taking this pill you will sleep better, wake up rested, and be more energetic the next day, well the pill was a simple very generic looking multi vitamin, and by the way the only people who knew what the lab was, were the group leaders and it was explained to the test subjects that we wanted to know if any or all of these claimed outcomes, came to be the next day.. Now for the results, we had 35 people in the class, 5 gave out the pills to groups of 6, so 5 groups total with 30 subjects all together..
The next day 23 of the 30 subjects claimed that all of the implied outcomes were true, they slept better, woke up rested and had more energy while the 4 others said they woke up rested and felt more energetic and the last 3 claimed to have felt no effects..
I know that this was a small study and may not be accurate but when something is said to be healthy or cure something people do believe it, and the subjects were very shocked to learn that the “miracle pill” was merely a simple over the counter vitamin.

Anyway later after the presentation we stayed to meet people and it was amazing how the questions were dodged, I consider my self pretty intelligent for my age and the questions I ask are only to the point, and I just found it funny to see them stumble over simple direct questions such as how do you sell the bottles, and I was always directed to listen to the cds or ask my host, and a few times the guy that I was asking stopped and said wow your smart.. TO me its just a piece of mind, its the same thought as if your going to a dealership, and you ask one of the salesman, what engine does it have, and to find out he needs to look at the manual or the window sticker, this has never happened to me because I usually know more than the salesman, but wouldnt you think twice about purchasing that car. If you believe in a product, a mindset, or a system you should be educated enough to answer the questions like they were on the back of your hand and be passionate about it.

Sorry for the rambling, I finally got home so I can type alot more than being on my phone..